Exact Navigation utilizing LEO Satellites

Dr. Tyler Reid, co-founder and CTO of Xona Area Methods, discusses a brand new sort of worldwide navigation satellite tv for pc system (GNSS). Xona Area Methods plans to supply centimeter-level positioning accuracy and can serve the rising autonomous car neighborhood, the place exact navigation is vital. Reid discusses the benefits and technical challenges of a low Earth orbit (LEO) resolution.

Tyler Reid

Tyler Reid is co-founder and CTO of Xona Area Methods. Beforehand, Tyler labored as a Analysis Engineer on the Ford Motor Firm in localization and mapping for self-driving automobiles. He has additionally labored as an engineer at Google and as a lecturer at Stanford College, the place he co-taught the GPS course. Tyler obtained his PhD (2017) and MSc (2012) in Aeronautics and Astronautics from Stanford and B.Eng. (’10) in Mechanical Engineering from McGill.

 

 

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lilly: Howdy and welcome to the Robohub podcast. Would you thoughts introducing your self?

Tyler: Howdy and thanks once more for having me on in the present day. So I’m Tyler Reid and I’m co-founder and CTO of Xona Area Methods.

lilly: And might you inform us somewhat bit about Xona Area Methods?

Tyler: Yeah, for positive. So Xona Area Methods is an organization centered on, principally constructing industrial GPS satellites.

So actually shifting away from the mannequin of, , these form of authorities operated programs like GPS which have a form of very particular, , authorities oriented mission. Transferring in the direction of a system that’s, , commercially pushed round form of wants of economic customers and, , going extra in that course to type of assist these customers going ahead.

lilly: And what do you assume are type of the advantages of going industrial with a GPS sort know-how?

Tyler: Yeah, for positive. So to talk somewhat bit about my background and type of the place a few of that is coming from. So, so I type of got here from the world of, , GPS and began actually in grad faculty on that aspect of issues.

And transitioned after grad faculty to working in form of trade analysis. So I used to be working in autonomous autos, working with these programs and form of seeing these programs actually closely depend on, on GPS and form of what’s on the market in the present day. And actually the state-of-the-art of the know-how was, , having third social gathering firms principally ship correction data for the GPS satellite tv for pc.

So the data coming from GPS straight was actually not fairly on the degree that it have to be to assist these, , programs like self-driving which might be actually attempting to get all the way down to the centimeter degree location to, to, , drive themselves on the street. and so to get to that degree, you had form of these firms whose entire form of position was to ship, , higher orbit, higher clock data than what GPS provides you straight to essentially drive these errors all the way down to that form of that centimeter degree.

And due to the way in which the system was architected, which actually wasn’t, , meant for use this manner, it led to. , the fragilities in that form of sign. So while you begin to drive beneath bushes or in sure environments, you’ll typically lose that form of centimeter degree location. And it simply, it type of left some, I suppose, holes to be stuffed by, by one thing else.

And what that’s one thing else was was, was a part of my job to determine, okay. You already know, was it perhaps terrestrial based mostly resolution? Is it laptop imaginative and prescient resolution is a form of the entire above. And, , with my background coming from, , satellite tv for pc navigation and GPS and form of seeing how these programs have supported, , some security, important purposes like civil aviation, which is, , a part of what my form of, the thesis work was in and form of fascinated by how that might evolve to assist, , a few of these floor programs like autonomous autos, but in addition uAVs and, and form of different type of,type of autonomous programs going ahead, that type of actually led to this.

Okay, properly, how can we alter issues on the house aspect slightly than simply attempting to make use of what we have now from these form of authorities programs to, to type of, , fill the gaps, I suppose. And so from a, from a industrial perspective, , what are a number of the advantages that you simply get there? Effectively, actually you’re not tied to form of the, the system that, that the federal government offers for you, which, , is form of static. It’s there for a cause. And it, , it’s actually a unbelievable system and it, it helps billions of customers. It has created form of all, , all these use instances that we, , I’ve, I’ve a horrible sense of course.

So, , figuring out form of the blue dot to seek out my means house has, has been, , extremely helpful. However, , as we take into consideration shifting away from, , people who can. use that data to type of get near the place they should go after which form of end the job themselves and, and going in the direction of autonomous programs that basically depend on that blue dot being, , precisely proper the place it’s to, to, to essentially get to that time type of on their very own, with none enter from, from any people.

There actually is type of that there’s type of a leap that should occur there by way of, , The sorts of ranges of, reliability and likewise, , precision that, that these programs assist. And so fascinated by this from form of the industrial perspective, , what are you able to present and, and turning into form of from an aerospace background, , how are you going to, , evolve this house phase to essentially be centered on the, on the industrial aspect.

And so. A number of the advantages. There may be you, you simply, , you’ve form of a clean slate in a way. And so you can begin with, , what do we actually have to assist customers on the bottom? After which we are able to begin to architect the system, , round a few of these, , rising wants slightly than, , supporting issues from in a long time, prior to now, I suppose.

lilly: And by way of like attending to that centimeter degree accuracy do you assume that a lot of the technological developments are within the house aspect or like, do you propose on doing does Xona house programs plan on doing a number of that error correction, like comparable error correction sort stuff and like the total stack?

Tyler: Yeah, that’s an excellent query. And I’ll say in some sense, we’re not inventing, we’re not reinventing the wheel. We’re type of, , we’re utilizing a number of the methods that’s been properly established by the type of excessive precision GNSS trade, which has supported traditionally [00:05:00] issues like surveying issues like mapping, precision agriculture, , are large customers of, of this sort of know-how.

And so actually form of constructing on the shoulders of giants in, in that respect. You already know, how, how are people getting excessive precision in the present day and form of, , evolving that to kinda the following, the following form of, , what would possibly the following type of, house infrastructure seem like to, to make use of these methods and form of make them even higher for folk.

And so, , while you have a look at the form of errors that stack up in GPS, you’ve obtained. The environment is an enormous one, , as these indicators refract by way of the completely different layers of the environment, notably the ionosphere and troposphere, , that that’s a, an error that type of manifests itself on the consumer degree, but in addition simply the orbit and clock data coming from the satellite tv for pc, as a result of finally you’re triangulating your place from, , just a few completely different factors in house.

You higher know very properly what these factors had been, cuz in any other case you’re not gonna know very properly. What, what your place is on the finish of the day. So you need to work out a solution to get, , centimeter degree, , orbital data of the GPS satellite tv for pc, with the intention to in flip type of get your place to the type of centimeter degree as properly.

And so how do you do this with type of, , as we take into consideration this sort of evolving from, , the form of, the methods which have been used prior to now to, , what may be potential, sooner or later? Effectively, it seems that one of many large form of inputs to that system, When it comes to how rapidly you may get from form of meter degree place all the way down to form of the centimeter degree is how rapidly the satellites transfer overhead.

And it seems that for those who make it such that the satellites transfer overhead in a short time, there’s simply much more data in that type of very fast cross than you’ve from these additional satellites, which historically are form of medium earth orbit to assist that convergence get you from form of a tens of minutes form of place to a minute or much less form of place. And, and naturally there are methods which might be making that at all times higher on a regular basis from a medium earth orbit perspective. You already know, while you’re utilizing form of the standard GSS satellites to, to get to that prime precision, there are methods evolving to, to get there quicker and quicker.

However in case you have that very quick type of movement throughout the sky, it simply makes these methods even higher than that they’d be in any other case. And in order that’s, that’s, that’s an instance of the form of factor you are able to do from a, , industrial house phase perspective to, to only type of deliver extra functionality to, to people on the bottom.

lilly: And so in case you have, for those who get higher efficiency from having shifting autos, and so that you’re having them at decrease orbits, you additionally want like three or so to get your place does having greater than that assist? And what number of, like what number of whole satellites do you assume is gonna be the correct quantity?

Tyler: Yeah, that’s a very good query.

What it comes all the way down to is, , the extra satellites, the higher , that’s form of the straightforward query, the straightforward reply there, however mm-hmm, actually we’re, , actually leveraging the same method that’s been used from, from GPS, which is called trilateration.. And what that’s, is there’s principally 4 unknowns in that system and the 4 unknowns or your X, Y, Zed (or sorry, that’s Canadian – XYZ) and, and time, and, and the explanation time is type of an uncertainty there may be that the way in which you calculate vary to the completely different satellites is that the satellite tv for pc sends a sign and the sign principally says it was this time after I despatched it, the sign takes a while for it to journey to you. You obtain it a while later.

And so the distinction between the time it was despatched and the time you obtained it’s the, principally the time of flight of the sign. And, and that point multiplied by the velocity of sunshine is, is the vary to the satellite tv for pc. So, for those who do this to a number of satellites, now you’ve calculated one thing that appears like a spread to you as a result of it’s, , that, that point of flight to a handful of satellites, you’ll consider, , in 3d house, you want, you’ve three satellites, three unknown, , XYZ place.

You already know, what’s the, what’s that fourth unknown, , why do you’ve that further unknown there? And that’s since you don’t know precisely what time it’s while you obtained it, you obtained it at some native time, which is, , no matter time your cellphone says, however , how, how correct is that on the finish of the.

Tyler: And while you consider the sensitivity of the issue of how correct you actually need to know your time to do to calculate these ranges? Effectively, it seems. One nanosecond of time, uncertainty is, is a foot or 30 centimeter. And so it stacks up very, in a short time while you’re speaking about form of nanosecond of, of time data, and it’s very arduous to, to take care of nanosecond type of timing in your cellphone.

Your time, time in your cellphone is extra on the form of microsecond degree. More often than not, that’s form of the place it must be to, to do its job, which is form of telecommunications and all these things. However for those who’re speaking about doing precision ranging. You actually need that form of nanosecond form of functionality.

And so slightly than, , having to deliver an atomic clock with you on a regular basis to type of preserve your time at that type of, , very excessive, exact degree, you simply resolve for it as a substitute. So that you add a fourth satellite tv for pc and now, , you get the three dimensions and that point dimension to, to get your place type of all the way down to, , our expertise in the present day is extra form of at that meter degree, however , that type of handful of nanosecond form of uncertainty form of level. And so, , going, in order that form of minimal quantity it’s essential get some form of place data is, is 4. It does assume you don’t have any different [00:10:00] sensors or, or nothing else like that.

So for those who simply form of solely have your form of GPS receiver and nothing else 4 satellites is form of the naked quantity it’s essential, to get that first place. so , what number of extra do it’s essential do the job? Effectively, properly, you need extra than simply 4 to form of be sturdy to that. And, and the reason being, is you begin type of shifting round on the planet.

You, you might not at all times have overseas view for those who form of have, you’re assuming you’ve full view of the sky, all it takes is a constructing to dam one a part of the sky and also you solely have three. So you actually wanna design that system to, , have greater than 4 in view always that you simply had been on earth.

So that you simply’re sturdy and issues like buildings being in the way in which, bushes being in the way in which. , additionally simply, typically it’s, , you’re gonna have simply one thing, that’s gonna offer you larger precision in case you have much more satellites in view, trigger you’ve extra measurements obtainable to you and.

The the correct of quantity that almost all, I suppose I’ll say GNSS programs have come to in the present day is extra at that form of 10 or 12 variety of satellites in view. And that’s what GPS has in the present day. That’s what the European Galileo system has in the present day. And so form of in addition to the, the Russian, sorry, the Russian GLONASS, and Chinese language Beidou programs are, are form of in that comparable variety of satellites.

And so. Tenish or so satellite tv for pc is about the place you need be form of at minimal and the extra satellites you need to simply higher, it’s gonna work in additional locations, I suppose.

lilly: Mm-hmm if it’s 10 or 12, like seen out of your system without delay, I assume they don’t have protection of in every single place suddenly for the total constructed out constellation.

Tyler: Yeah, that’s an excellent query. And so when, while you’re speaking about form of the GPS system, which is deployed in a medium Earth orbit, which is about 20,000 kilometer altitudeor so. That system has about 30 satellites to attain that aim. In order that’s about what number of satellites that while you deploy type of on the excessive orbit that you simply want. We’re focusing on a decrease orbit than that in the present day, which is extra form of within the thousand kilometer vary..

So, so being that 20 occasions nearer to earth, it seems that satellite tv for pc footprint simply shrinks and shrinks and shrinks. Trigger you’re simply a lot nearer to, to earth. And so that you want extra satellites to get the identical quantity of protection. So we’re focusing on a couple of 300 satellite tv for pc constellation or so.

lilly: OK. talking concerning the time of flight measurements, is there any, like, would you think about and what are the benefits and drawbacks of, as a substitute of doing the a method time of flight and having to maintain monitor of all that synchronization with doing type of a two-way ranging, the place your system is the one pinging?

Tyler: Yeah, that’s an excellent query. And, and this was one of many authentic trades that was carried out when people had been creating GPS. And so some folks smarter than me had, had put a number of thought into, , why you would possibly. Do this sort of system over say this sort of two-way time switch system.

Yeah. And a number of the benefits there, the principle one is admittedly that in case your system has to ping again to the satellite tv for pc, it does two issues and certainly one of them is that it, it, it’s a much bigger energy draw in your system as a result of your system is having to form of ship a radio sign {that a} satellite tv for pc has to obtain.

And in order that that’s one piece. And the opposite piece of it’s that the satellites then additionally should, have the ability to obtain all these indicators from a number of customers. And so you find yourself placing a constraint on the capability of the satellite tv for pc within the sense that now that satellite tv for pc has to get pings again from all these people which might be utilizing it, perhaps only some hundred or just a few thousand folks without delay can use it, which is, it finally ends up being form of a limiter on the variety of people who can really use that system.

Whereas for those who use this sort of a method time switch system, the place though you do want type of an additional satellite tv for pc in view to unravel the issue. You possibly can in idea type of, , assist an infinite variety of customers. And so, which is the case of GPS in the present day, the place we see it supporting, , billions of customers and you may, , add as many gadgets as you need with out having that constraint.

In order that, that that’s the massive one.

lilly: Yeah, that is sensible. So if you’re at this decrease orbit and GPS satellites, The normal authorities funded ones nonetheless exist above you. Can you utilize them to higher monitor your satellites?

Tyler: Yeah. completely. And that turns into one of many inputs, to the system, for positive.

As a result of, and folk have carried out a number of stuff in, in low Earth orbit, supported by GPS as a result of a part of the service quantity of, of these GPS is to assist purposes in decrease orbit. So you possibly can consider earth imagery, the worldwide house station, all these sorts of parents are, are utilizing that. That being mentioned, we’re designing the system to be GPS unbiased.

Simply because there’s a number of curiosity from that from people to have that functionality, you’re not essentially totally depending on, , this different system that you simply’re augmenting having some potential to type of function, with out enter from that system is, is advantageous in some methods, however it’s there and it’s a nice enter to the system that, that we’re placing collectively.

Tyler: And so it is sensible to, to incorporate these measurements a means of simply making the system extra sturdy on the finish of the day.

For a consumer, like for the common particular person with a cellphone, will the GPS receiver that I have already got on my cellphone work along with your system instantly? Or are there modifications that should be made?

Tyler: Yeah, that’s a very good query too. And it, there’ll possible should be modifications to, to the system in your cellphone in the present day, however we see that as a part of the type of pure evolution of how the GNSS chip units are evolving and. Considered one of our, I suppose our common method to this isn’t to compete with the GNSS receiver producers it’s to work with them, to include [00:15:00] our service into their gadgets.

And, and so actually working to, , make it, make that type of adoption as just like what say including a number of the new constellations which have come on-line over time is like, so, , initially there was solely GPS chips after which there was GPS plus BLONASS chips, after which there GPS plus Galileo plus BLONASS plus Beidou chips.

And so actually attempting to kind. Proceed that evolution of together with a few of these, these new programs into these chip units. And so working with the, the GNSS receiver producers for most probably the following era of gadgets, as a result of notably the form of ASIC gadgets that you simply discover in your cellphone are, are so optimized for a selected software that becoming in new issues is, is an enormous problem. For a number of the extra, I’ll say, this, type of, excessive efficiency receivers which might be on the market in the present day which might be supporting a number of the excessive precision purposes on that aspect of issues, that there’s some, risk of, having that be extra akin to a, a software program replace than,than type of a brand new system.

lilly: Attention-grabbing. I wished to pivot somewhat bit and speak extra about, a few of your work with autonomous autos and at like, there’s clearly a transparent, like interface between these two issues, however what are a number of the similarities and variations by way of like the way you really are fixing technical issues or the autonomy on the autos and the autonomy on the satellites or any of that form of factor?

Tyler: Yeah, that’s an excellent query. So I’ll say half, perhaps I’ll, I’ll take. Give somewhat little bit of historical past of type of the place a number of the, I suppose, type of my time in autonomous car type of led to this curiosity in type of pursuing this sort of satellite tv for pc navigation aspect. so after I entered the form of autonomous car realm and I used to be working at Ford motor firm on the time, a part of my position at that at the moment was type of a mix of know-how scouting and elementary analysis .

In know-how scouting, it was actually working with the startups, notably in Silicon valley, but in addition different know-how firms as properly, to essentially set up, , what’s the state-of-the-art in, , location and mapping applied sciences for. At first was, , centered on form of these degree 4 degree 5 totally autonomous autos, however it was additionally type of supporting a number of the degree two degree three form of, driver help programs as properly.

And type of as soon as establishing that form of the place, what the state of they’re, the know-how was a part of that and type of, attempting to establish which of them had been a number of the market leaders was to determine, , what are the necessities for these programs finally, and which one is form of closest to the place the necessities ultimately have to be.

So, , what are the situation necessities for, for autonomy? And that turned out to be a, a a lot tougher query than I believe we initially thought, I believe people had been like, oh, , 10 centimeters appears to be the proper quantity, however it was typically form of unjustified. It was type of a ten centimeter appears to be a quantity the place the system fails the least.

In order that looks like place to start out. However we wished to form of take a step again and say, okay, essentially, , what do these autos actually need by way of, , a bounding field, for those who wanna consider it that means round a car to say, okay, that is the situational consciousness that I want to do that, this sort of household of duties or this sort of household of duties.

And actually what it turns into is there’s some purposes the place it’s essential know what street you’re on. Some purposes it’s essential know what lane you’re in. And a few purposes we actually have to know, , to the centimeter, to have the ability to steer the automobile throughout the lane and form of, , get to the place you’re going.

And it turned out that, , seeing form of the place, the place the necessities finally wanted to go and form of the place the state-of-the-art know-how was. There was at the very least in my thoughts, very a lot a niche of, , the place, the place issues, type of stood in the present day. And that led to the motivation, at the very least from, from my aspect to say, okay, properly, what’s one thing we are able to do from the infrastructure aspect to assist fill that hole?

As a result of one of many traits that was occurring within the autonomous car trade, at the very least within the time after I was, was there was. You already know, the, the form of variety of sensors, the quantity of compute on the autos was making these autos in some sense, prohibitively costly. You already know, you had a lot {hardware} on the autos, the autos had been form of these form of million greenback, very specialised form of autos.

It simply didn’t scale that properly, whereas for those who can offload a few of that to the infrastructure aspect, to assist numerous autos, You already know, that appeared to make extra sense to me at the very least. And, and so this went again to, okay, properly, what, , being form of somebody from an aerospace background, place, navigation background, considering, okay, properly, what can we do from an area, infrastructure aspect to assist this sort of place navigation and, and time downside.

Tyler: And so I believe by way of, , the place these two issues are, are type of coming collectively is, is admittedly seeing this from a okay, how can the, this infrastructure assist the wants of these programs? There are, after all, some, some crossover between the 2 within the sense that there are applied sciences which might be, I believe gonna be used on each within the sense that, , you need these satellites while you’re deploying a big constellation to have, , a excessive diploma of autonomy about themselves by way of fault monitoring by way of integrity monitoring.

As a result of finally you’re attempting to. You already know, assist these, , security, important programs within the, within the case of automotive. And so having the, , a number of that form of fault checking, type of carried out in an autonomous means. In order that be caught in a short time, it turns into crucial, however there’s additionally simply elementary issues like, , essentially a car when it’s doing its navigation and positioning is operating [00:20:00] one thing like a Kalman filter or some one thing that’s combining these measurements.

These sorts of issues are gonna be operating on, on the satellites for orbit willpower. So it’s a special context of downside, however , essentially the same software in, ultimately of the day. And there’s additionally some components of, I believe, collaborative, , infrastructure as properly. So while you consider, , self-driving automobile driving by itself with a complete bunch of sensors on it, properly, that’s.

You’re form of simply attempting to interchange one human in a automobile. Perhaps that’s not the easiest way to do it. Perhaps there’s some benefits to having autos work collectively in a collaborative means the place, , a car that’s maybe down the street from you possibly can share sensor data or situational consciousness data with the intention to set up that situational consciousness, , on the metropolis degree the place you possibly can see round corners, see aroundyou know, different obstacles which you can’t see to form of get to the purpose the place you’re driving as safely, as , all of the people mixed on the street, slightly than form of only one human can solely see one a part of the view of the world. And so I believe there’s a component of that that may discover its means into the, the house form of the house and form of floor segments that assist these form of house programs going ahead.

Y know, how can these programs work collectively to seek out faults in one another the place , these, these sorts of concepts that I believe are, are attention-grabbing as properly.

lilly: Yeah. that’s a very good level. And I’m somewhat in listening to extra about this concept of getting the satellites collaborate and type of what are essentially the most technically difficult or technically promising components of that.

Tyler: Yeah, that’s an excellent query as properly. There’s, I’ll say there’s rather a lot occurring in, within the house trade now, I believe even in comparison with, , even 5 or 10 years in the past that they actually make a number of this potential. And , one of many large ones is simply the dimensions of the constellations being deployed today.

And I believe that that’s enabled by. A number of issues just like the decrease value of entry to house, , SpaceX is I believe one of many extra seen gamers there, however there are after all others and the opposite is simply, , completely different satellite tv for pc manufacturing methods. So constructing satellites extra such as you would construct a automobile on an meeting line slightly than form of these bespoke form of one satellite tv for pc’s in a room the place you’ve a bunch of individuals form of placing stuff on it.

It’s a reasonably, it’s only a completely different mannequin of, of assembling this stuff. And. After we have a look at the sorts of applied sciences that I believe are, are type of coming into that type of satellite tv for pc realm which might be perhaps even borrowed from locations like automotive, the place, , particularly while you’re speaking about meeting and, and testing, , making one thing that’s, , very sturdy in, in form of excessive volumes that.

Type of brings this stuff collectively. I believe that, that that’s at the very least one instance of, , I believe the place these two industries can study from one another, I suppose. Uh, okay. So I believe so far as, , autonomy on the satellites and the power to type of collaborate with one another, I believe one of many large, the, one of many large parts of that’s the potential for the satellites to only speak to one another, to start with. And so the power to type of cross data.

Between satellites is, is I believe a, an enormous milestone type of as a part of that. And I believe one of many enabling applied sciences there that we’re, that we’ve seen type of come to mild is the, this potential of form of having inter satellite tv for pc communication hyperlinks between these satellites. And there’s been a number of, I believe development of in each optical and radio, form of,, intersatellite hyperlinks between that to cross that data round.

And I believe that, that, I imply step one to collaboration as it’s an automotive as properly, it’s simply establishing I believe that that’s customary and likewise the type of potential for this stuff to cross data between one another. I believe there’s definitely been challenges in automotive on that aspect with, with establishing requirements, with issues like vehicle-to-things, so V2 V to X, so car -to-stuff, or different car form of communication hyperlinks and establishing simply, , what’s the spectrum that we shared? What’s the protocols for these form of communications? And I believe it’s, it’s one factor to do it in a form of. You already know, if one say automotive OEM decides to do it a sure means they usually can do this between all their autos.

It’s one other to do it type of throughout autos of all completely different producers, type of in a standardized means. And so I believe that that’s that’s one of many challenges is simply type of establishing, establishing type of the know-how and the form of requirements for that communication throughout, throughout satellites.

And naturally, as we take into consideration deploying our system, we expect principally of type of communication between the satellites that we have now. Nevertheless it’s attention-grabbing to consider, , potential, , cross type of, communication between different platforms as properly.

lilly: Yeah. And do you propose on, do you anticipate having optical or RF cross hyperlinks or each in your system?

Tyler: Yeah, I believe that’s one thing that we’re exploring. So I believe it’s one thing that’s on the desk, however I believe that we’re nonetheless in, we’re on the section proper now the place we have now deployed our first demonstration satellite tv for pc. And so for the demonstration satellite tv for pc, it has, I’ll say one thing that’s akin to, , inter satellite tv for pc hyperlink, which we’re exploring between this, our type of second launch that’s coming, subsequent yr.

And so. That’s one thing that we’re exploring as a part of the long run deployment of the system, however the type of earlier iterations could, it will not be required. So it’s, it’s one thing that we’re exploring and it’s one thing we’re keeping track of, however, it it’s perhaps not essentially one thing that’s essentially important to the system working.

lilly: Effectively, congratulations in your first launch and your upcoming second launch. I wished to pivot somewhat bit extra really, and listen to a bit about, a few of your [00:25:00] analysis again while you had been within the academia and like how that led into, each your autonomous car and your present jobs.

Tyler: Yeah, that’s a, yeah, that brings me again

So to return to, I suppose my days as a grad pupil. So, the lab that I labored in was the GPS analysis lab at Stanford college. And it was a very nice atmosphere for me. It was one which centered, , very a lot on that form of place navigation downside, but in addition one which centered somewhat bit on, , operational tasks for the FAA, in addition to we had been working with the federal aviation administration.

You already know, assist these form of security, important programs, , plane utilizing GPS to land plane utilizing GPS in flight. so, , fascinated by issues about, , what are security important use instances of place navigation and time particularly in transportation. And on this case, it was supporting civil aviation.

And in order that was a very, that was a very attention-grabbing atmosphere for me, since you may see the work that you simply’re doing straight impacting that trade. In some variety of years, it wasn’t that the grad college students had been engaged on issues, , straight form of in operation, however that it wasn’t too distant from form of essentially seeing the lifetime of operation.

So I believe from a, , how that led into form of the, the work that I used to be doing, form of within the autonomous car world. I believe that fascinated by the issue of, , what are the form of ranges of situational consciousness that autos want by way of place navigation and time, , what’s the degree of form of security and integrity that these programs want?

Actually utilizing that form of framework in a structured solution to develop, , what would possibly that framework seem like in automotive, which was form of new to that concept of getting place and data as a part of that form of security, important enter to, , steering the car and, , form of maintaining the human partially within the loop or completely within the loop, that are form of issues that aviation had type of labored by way of as a result of there are occasions the place the plane will fly itself.

There are occasions the place the plane form of has the pilot within the. So it’s, , fascinated by these sorts of issues in that framework. And I believe that that, that form of aspect of issues straight led to the work that we did in type of establishing, , what may be the framework and necessities for these autos going ahead.

You already know, fascinated by this in form of a civil aviation method, as a result of. And while you evaluate the numbers, , civil aviation actually has one of the best monitor file which you can provide you with by way of security and, , per miles traveled with people and form of all these by all metrics. It’s it’s means safer to sit down at an airplane than it’s to sit down in a automobile that that was that’s typically the, the takeaway and a part of that’s the properly that people have rather a lot much less people in automobiles have rather a lot much less coaching than people in plane who’re working these issues.

And so it’s a. That that’s simply essentially a type of variations. And, and, and a part of that’s, is that if one thing goes unsuitable in an plane, such as you higher know what to do rapidly, whereas one thing goes unsuitable in a automobile, you possibly can pull off to the aspect of the street. And so, and so simply essentially some, some variations there, however I believe that that’s, that’s one of many large ones I believe was, , bringing a few of that framework from, , aviation to automotive and fascinated by these, these issues in that means.

And the opposite aspect of that was the form of. You already know, the form of industrial GPS and GNSS aspect of that. So, , transitioning from, , You already know, the federal government system that helps, , all these billions of gadgets and created all this sort of, , financial growth and form of all these developments, and fascinated by how which may evolve form of within the so-called form of new house age, which is the age while you consider issues like SpaceX and, , these form of gamers which have actually challenged the type of so-called conventional aerospace, which is, extra the form of, , while you consider that as form of these longer timelines, very danger antagonistic form of gamers. And, and, , fascinated by how, how would possibly a few of these form of new methods or new approaches in house, fascinated by these form of mega constellations which might be being proposed by, on the time they had been being proposed, it didn’t but exist. So we’re speaking about form of Starlink and OneWeb and , all these form of gamers, which appeared form of like science fiction on the time, this was form of within the 2015 form of period earlier than a number of these things launched something or had been deployed.

These had been all form of concepts on. , a few of that work was type of the elemental, okay, properly, what would possibly you have the ability to do with one thing like this? If, if these form of satellites really come to exist, if the launch prices really come down, , what may be some functionality that you could possibly leverage from that form of house infrastructure?

So for those who may deploy one thing like that for place navigation and time, , what would possibly that seem like? What would possibly the capabilities be? However I believe at that time it was form of a okay, properly that, that’s an attention-grabbing downside, however, It was in some sense, missing motivation. It was type of a, okay, properly, who desires this?

You already know, what do we’d like this for? GPS works very well. Each, I believe on the time it was like, properly, we’ve carried out it. You already know, GPS is in everybody’s pocket. What else may you need? And, and it wasn’t till I, I labored in an trade the place GPS, because it stood, wasn’t fairly sufficient for, for what they wanted that I type of these dots related at at the very least on my aspect to, to see, okay, properly perhaps this sort of method may assist this different aspect as properly.

So in some sense, , there’s, I suppose studying from each side and form of related this stuff collectively, I suppose.

lilly: Yeah, that makes [00:30:00] sense. It’s very attention-grabbing to listen to the way it all connects. we’re arising on time, however I do have one final query. which is, are there different industrial gamers attempting to get into the GNSS house?

Like, do you’ve any actual rivals proper now?

Tyler: Oh, there, positive. There’s positively people on the market. So we’re not the one ones doing this. I believe that they’re, I gained’t identify all of them by identify. Trigger I, I can’t communicate to everybody’s plans on the market, however I can communicate to a, just a few common traits that, that we’ve seen.

And one is that, , the, the parents on the market who’re constructing these form of mega constellations for communication functions. So, , the web from the sky form of people are positively all in favour of offering one thing. I believe that it, it appears to be like very completely different from, from what we’re working in the direction of, which is extra of a , , particular excessive efficiency, , GNSS, P and T form of service, which appears to be like rather a lot like what you have already got in your cellphone by way of chip set, by way of these sorts of, , antenna, these sorts of things. While you have a look at a number of the, , the communication, programs, , actually they’re a very completely different frequency bands.

Their consumer terminals are often fairly giant as a result of we’d like a reasonably large antenna to type of, full the hyperlink price range to get the form of information charges that they’re speaking about. It, it they’re, they’re definitely fascinated by it, however I believe that, , their major aim is admittedly, , communication, however it’s type of a, oh, we are able to, , we have now this technique, we are able to most likely assist some form of navigation as properly.

At the least that’s what we’ve seen up to now. So I believe that that’s, that’s one of many rivals on the market. When it comes to others, we’ve seen some attention-grabbing stuff occurring from really one of many main, automotive OEMs on the market, which is a Chinese language firm referred to as Geely. They’re really constructing and deploying their very own constellation, which is admittedly to assist autonomous automotive actions. It’s, , communication navigation form of multi function package deal. And in order that’s, , seems to be, , one of many large, one of many large gamers on the market. And so there there’s definitely another firms as properly. There are some established companies on the market in the present day, for instance, from Iridium, which is offering some P and T companies in the present day.

And there are different satellite tv for pc companies offering extra correction companies. So issues which might be correcting, offering further data to type of praise the GPS sign, however not a further, , type of ranging or GPS sign itself. In order that’s, I believe one of many, one of many main variations there.

Tyler: So, and we, we, and I believe since we’ve been doing this, we’ve seen some others, another firms type of suggest some comparable issues as properly. So I believe we’re, it seems to be that, issues are heading on this course, I suppose.

lilly: Effectively, yeah, it’s positively an thrilling house to be in an thrilling time.

And. A extremely attention-grabbing concept. Thanks a lot for talking with me.

Tyler: Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks once more for, for the invitation to talk right here in the present day. And, yeah, this was nice dialogue.

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tags: Enterprise, c-Area, cx-Area, PNT, podcast, Robotics know-how, house, startup

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